UGANDA: Jackie Mbabazi warned Ugandans about Kayihura in 2014
Monitor Weekend’s Managing Editor Charles Odoobo Bichachi (L) interviews Ms Mbabazi at her home in Kololo, Kampala on Friday. Photo by Faiswal Kasirye
By Charles Odoobo Bichachi (DAILY MONITOR)
Kayihura doing politics instead of police work – Ms Mbabazi
A number of NRM youth have been arrested and their offence is that they were mobilising fellow youth and collecting signatures to endorse your husband’s presumed presidential bid, what do you make of the charges?
I think the charges leveled against the youth are very unfortunate, you can see we have a very defective charge sheet here where the youth are charged with abuse of office, they are charged under the Anti-Corruption Act, specifically section 11. This section refers to, ‘a person who is employed in a public body or company in which government has shares or somewhere it talks about a political party but even if these youth are members of the political party and actually they are members of the National Executive Council, they are not employees of the party, they are just elected members of the party!
And so there is no reason why they should have been charged under Section 11 of the Anti-Corruption Act. These so-called offences are just trumped-up charges to demoralise, humiliate and put out of action the youth. You know the youth are normally very active politically and should they have different views from another group, even of the party, they are entitled to their views.
Secondly, one wonders who the complainant is. Who is the complainant? I am a member of the Central Executive Committee (CEC) of the NRM, we are 24. We have no idea about the charges on these youth and their imprisonment.
So you are saying the party has not complained officially? The party organs have not sat and said, look, these youth have committed a wrong against the party?
Not at all and the party according to our constitution has a code of conduct, we have mechanisms of bringing errant members to book, we have a disciplinary committee where these youth who are senior officials of the party being members of NEC should have been taken and just like the other MPs who are right now in court, were first taken to CEC which decided that they should go to the disciplinary committee and they were taken there.
Even to go to the disciplinary committee there must be a complainant, so in this case, who is the complainant, even if you look at the charge sheet, you will not know who the complainant is. They are charged as officials of the NRM but who is the complainant?
It would appear then that somebody is using the national court system and considering that these youths have been charged with collecting signatures, and trying to oppose the recent resolution at Kyankwanzi, and you have been named to be the person behind them, do you anticipate that you might as well end up in the Anti-Corruption Court for abusing your office as chair of the NRM Women’s league?
Well, let me put this right. I think they are being charged for abusing their offices according to this charge sheet, that they solicited bribes, induced and tricked NRM party members and mobilisers into signing a petition to convene a delegates’ conference to challenge the NRM party resolution.
Now if they were soliciting signatures to convene a delegates conference, there would be no problem with that because according to our constitution, members can solicit signatures and once they have enough signatures, they can convene a national delegates conference.
Now to convene a conference to challenge the NRM party resolution, I think this refers to the Kyankwanzi resolution which is actually not a movement party resolution but a caucus resolution. The party has organs, the CEC, NEC, and National Conference (NC), these are the three organs which deal with matters of elections which therefore should be the ones to deal with or originate the Kyankwanzi resolution.
Let me even assume that the MPs were correct in reaching their resolution, it does not mean that other members of the party cannot have contrary resolutions which would be brought to CEC, NEC and finally the Delegates Conference so I think what offended whoever is doing this is that they held a press conference after Kyankwanzi, they were not happy with Kyankwanzi and so they pronounced their preferred candidate for 2016 and in any democratic system or party, there should be no problem with such a thing.
So in my opinion, these young people have not abused their offices, they are elected leaders, so the charges as I said are being trumped up by actually the Inspector General of Police, Kale Kayihura.
We know who was happy with the Kyankwanzi resolution, therefore, we know who would be unhappy with the youth making a contrary resolution. Do you think that this is the same person behind?
I don’t know which person you are talking about because I don’t know who was happy with the Kyankwanzi resolution.
The resolution was in support of President Museveni so he should definitely have been very happy with it.
President Museveni has not told me that he is happy with this resolution and when it was brought in CEC which he [Museveni] was chairing, he did not tell us he is happy with this resolution. But it was brought for our consideration and we rejected it. I do not think that the President is behind Kayihura’s operations. I would imagine that the police is for keeping law and order and I think that is why the police exists and what it is charged to do but Kayihura himself is not interested in keeping law and order, he is only interested in doing politics and running the NRM party.
Kayihura has been arresting, intimidating and in one case of Omodo Omodo [NRM youth leader], his people torturing him. He has been arresting even chairmen of districts such as Mr Ziad Sebuliba of Rubaga and so many people he calls to make statements. It could be that he is doing this on behalf of somebody but for him to be putting a lot of effort in creating a rift between the President and his Prime Minister is very unfortunate for this country.
So these complaints against Gen Kayihura whom you described as Gen Teargas, have been long running against him; that he uses the police to play politics. Where does he get the authority to use the police against politicians and those who hold certain views? Why doesn’t the President rein him in, that is if he is doing this on his own?
I am not the President so I cannot answer that question why the President does not rein him in but I don’t know who is behind Kayihura. What I know is that he is doing all this not with the regular police officers as such but with some “lumpens” whom he recruited and he is more or less running the police with these lumpens, one of them is called Sebina of Luweero, there is another one called Kitata of Rubaga and Masanga of Mbale.
I hope this is not the Masanga who was with Kony?
(Laughs) No, I don’t think so. There is another one from Nsangi, I don’t remember his name correctly but these are the people who are actually running the show at police headquarters, some of them are completely illiterate.
This is a very serious allegation you are making; that the IGP has essentially left the structure of the police and is using what you call lumpens. We have seen the ‘kiboko squad’ on the streets, are you actually saying the police have essentially been side-stepped by the IGP and now what we have is not the police as it is supposed to be?
I am not working with the police force but for these operations regarding the running of our political party, Kayihura is working with the lumpens, I don’t know what else they could be doing in the police. Kayihura has been rounding up the youth, interviewing them, and these are the youth he believes are working with me. Him and his lumpens have been coaching these youth to make certain allegations and I even had a chance to record him.
I was going to ask what evidence you have that he is actually coaching people he is supposed to investigate. Do you have a recording? Can I have a copy?
I have recorded him. In this recording which I am going to make publicly available, the IGP and one fellow, Sebina, were coaching a youth called Kasirivu from Kayunga District. I have played this recording for the President to listen. In the same recording, Kayihura is telling these youth to bring in the name of Gen Aronda Nyakairima (minister of Internal Affairs) and Brig Mugira (former CMI boss) as those also working for the Mbabazi presidential bid.
In this recording, they go further to bring in the archbishop of Rubaga [Kampala Archdiocese], Dr Cyprian Kizito Lwanga and also the Archbishop of the Anglican Church, the Rt Rev Stanley Ntangali, that they came to this house and had a lot of tea and found these boys I am working with and after they had had enough tea, they then prayed for these youth to go and do village mobilisation, all this is in the recording.
What did the president say when you played this recording to him?
He did not make any comment.
I presume then that you have brought up the issue of Gen Kayihura creating all these trumped up charges and all his maneuvers to the attention of the President, what does he say about all these?
Yes, we had several meetings with the President and I indeed brought to his attention all these and I believe, to some extent the President is being used by Kayihura because I believe when Kayihura takes in reports about these discussions with the youth, he omits his own part and the part of this Sebina and transcribes for him what the youth have said and these are the ones the President was reading to the caucus when he met the MPs and was making allegations against me. He read for them transcripts of certain recordings and intercepts, so Kayihura removes his and Sebina’s part and leaves the answers the young men have given which are out of coaching and probably intimidation.
What is his motive? Does he have any issues with you or your husband? What is driving him to act this way?
I have never had any issue with Gen Kayihura until of late when I noticed he was doing a lot of funny things, trying to use some opposition youth to go and demonstrate here, giving them money here and there to go and demonstrate against Mr Mbabazi.
I think there must be a force somewhere using Gen Kayihura because I don’t think it would be the President because his actions of trying to cause a rift between the President and his Prime Minister can cause a lot of problems for this country. The President himself would be the first to see this and not believe what Gen Kayihura says but as I told you, he has been giving him bits and bits of the interview.
The President has come out to say that he has no problems with the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister has come out to say the same thing but we see problems still continuing, is there a third party that we don’t see in all these?
I don’t see the problems you are talking about.
Within the party, all this pulling and pushing…
Certainly I don’t see a problem between the Prime Minister and the President but somebody somewhere working with Gen Kayihura is trying to run the party and actually run it down and is in the process, going to cause a lot of problems for Uganda.
The Prime Minister has been very close to the President, I presume your families have been very close, all these years. Now all these things coming up, what effect have they had on the relationship between the family of the President and Prime Minister?
We don’t have bad family relations, not at all.
For instance, I would ask, do you speak to the First Lady, Janet Museveni regularly? Do your children speak?
I think that is a very personal question and I will not answer that but we really don’t have a problem between the two families. somebody somewhere is trying to cause a problem, between the two families.
IGP using thugs to frame us, says Mbabazi wife
Ms Mbabazi, also the NRM Women’s League chairperson, says the police chief’s actions could stir trouble for the country.
By ERIASA MUKIIBI SSERUNJOGI
Prime Minister Amama Mbabazi’s wife, Ms Jacqueline Mbabazi, has accused the police chief, Gen Kale Kayihura, of working with “lumpens” to create a rift between President Museveni and her husband and to frame her with fabricated evidence.
Ms Mbabazi told Monitor’s Managing Editor Charles Odoobo Bichachi on Friday that Gen Kayihura had “coached” witnesses to implicate her in the widely alleged plan by Mr Mbabazi to challenge Mr Museveni for the presidency in the 2016 election. She added that Kayihura is also working to drag other people into the alleged Museveni-Mbabazi conflict.
Ms Mbabazi’s interview came after the arrest of two NRM youth leaders
Mr Omodo- Omodo, the NRM youth vice chairperson for northern region, and Mr Adam Luzindana, the NRM youth chairperson for Kampala, who were charged in the Anti-Corruption Court on Wednesday and sent to prison for alleged abuse of office.
The prosecution alleges that the duo “fraudulently solicited, bribed, induced and tricked” NRM party members into signing a petition to convene a Delegates Conference to challenge a party resolution. The resolution referred to is the one that NRM MPs signed at Kyankwanzi last month, endorsing President Museveni as the party’s sole candidate for the 2016 presidential election.
The resolution was interpreted as a plot to block Mr Mbabazi’s supposed presidential bid. Shortly after the party caucus retreat at Kyankwanzi, Mr Museveni recalled the MPs for another meeting at State House where it emerged that Ms Mbabazi had started mobilising against the resolution.
Ms Mbabazi admitted she mobilised against the Kyankwanzi resolution because she felt her husband had been unfairly treated. The remanded youth were among those who were thought to be working with her.
Swipe at Kayihura
Ms Mbabazi attributed much of the recent misunderstandings between the President and his Prime Minister to Gen Kayihura.
“Kayihura himself is not interested in keeping law and order, he is only interested in doing politics and running the NRM party.”
“Kayihura has been arresting, intimidating and in the case of Omodo Omodo; his people torturing him,” said Ms Mbabazi, who also accused Gen Kayihura of arresting NRM district chairpersons and other people.
She further accused Gen Kayihura of attempting to implicate Internal Affairs Minister Gen Aronda Nyakairima, former Chief of Military Intelligence Brig James Mugira, Catholic Archbishop Cyprian Kizito Lwanga and Anglican Archbishop Stanley Ntagali as working for Mr Mbabazi’s alleged presidential scheme.
“For him to be putting a lot of effort in creating a rift between the President and his Prime Minister is very unfortunate for this country,” Ms Mbabazi added.
She said Gen Kayihura is using “lumpens” at the police headquarters, some of whom she named, in his scheme against her and her husband.
Gen Kayihura dismissed Ms Mbabazi’s accusations which he described as a result of panic.
“Rushing to the media with personal and misguided attacks against the IGP won’t do. I will not go down the unprofessional route of undermining the investigation and court process, by engaging in a public discussion of the merits of a case already before court,” Gen Kayihura said in an e-mail reply to the Sunday Monitor.
“I would like to make it categorically clear: I have not coached any person,” Gen Kayihura said. He said he receives a lot of information and treats it scientifically to sieve truth from lies.
I would like to make it categorically clear: I have not coached any person.
As IGP, I receive significant volumes of information, some of it accurate and some of it not so accurate. We put all such information through our in-house system for processing. It is a routine practice, before we act on any info. It is called investigation.
Our investigation is further put through a rigorous examination by the DPP [Director of Public Prosecutions]; and then, of course, the court; where our evidence is subjected to public scrutiny.
In this instance, there is an investigation in progress and, indeed, some suspects have been charged before court over the same issue. Essentially, this means both the investigators and the DPP are convinced that the sum total of the evidence in their possession discloses a sanctionable offence.
To the best of my knowledge, diverse sources came out in overwhelming numbers to volunteer evidence to the CID in this investigation. The Police did not go looking for them, and there was, therefore, no need for any coaching, as alleged.
In fact, I am informed that the persons allegedly coached are not even witnesses in this case.
Nonetheless, should a suspect or any other person feel aggrieved by any action taken by police in the process of investigation, they have ample opportunity to challenge the police by presenting their version of evidence before court.
Panicking at this point, and rushing to the media with personal and misguided attacks against the IGP won’t do. I will not go down the unprofessional route of undermining the investigation and court process, by engaging in a public discussion of the merits of a case already before court.
Any person seeking to sabotage the on-going legal process by deflecting attention from themselves, or to undermine the integrity of the investigation by resorting to theatrics and playing victim, is wasting time.
Gen. Kale Kayihura
Inspector-General of Police
29th March, 2014.
Monitor reporter Ivan Okuda transcribed the interview. To be continued in Daily Monitor tomorrow